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[Music]

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wow

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welcome to shattered reality with your

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hosts kate valentine

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and ferocia prepare to have your

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paradigms

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shifted into truth questioned

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and now shattered reality shattered

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reality

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this is ferusha here and today is

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december 4th

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2018 and once again

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kate valentine is not with us however i

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have recently spoken to her

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and she's just fine and she's looking

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forward to coming back to the show

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so today um i wanted to start out

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with a little bit of a hello

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to somebody out in

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athens ohio who is a friend of mine

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named paula lockhart uh paula

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if you are listening i wanted to thank

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you very much

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for recommending today's guest uh

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today's podcast is number 79

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for those of you who are keeping track

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of our numbers

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but paula went to a um to a

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lecture in athens ohio where she lives

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and she came across this amazing woman

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who has written uh three books

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on history and literature

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she herself i believe is a journalist

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and uh a professor of

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uh at a a university here

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uh ohio ohio university perhaps she'll

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correct me exactly the name of where she

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she is teaching but she has written

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three books

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never seen the moon the trials of edith

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maxwell

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and she's also co-edited an american

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vein

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critical readings in appalachian

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literature

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she lives in athens ohio and the book

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that we are going to discuss

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today is called enchanted ground the

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spirit room

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of jonathan coons so let's welcome

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to shattered reality sharon

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hatfield hi sharon hi ferusha it's great

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to be on your program today i'm

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eager to talk about jonathan coons he's

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been an

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obsession of mine for many years okay

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well um before we get into

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mr coons uh let's hear a little bit more

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about you

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so uh how did you uh come to

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athens ohio how did you um

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start out uh with this interest

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well i've always been a curious person i

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loved school

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i loved reading and speculating about

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things as a child i was drawn to fairy

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tales

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i loved nancy drew mysteries and then

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as a grown-up i did become a journalist

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i did work in newspapers

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for a while and now i just work on my

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own

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writing about things that interest me

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and in 2010

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living here in athens ohio i decided

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that i would like to look more into the

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story of jonathan coons who was a

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spiritualist who lived

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here in our county in the 1850s

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and the reason that i got interested in

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jonathan was because at halloween

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the local papers would do a roundup of

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spooky stories from athens county ohio

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and they would usually mention coons

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because

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um not only did he have musical uh not

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only did he have seances that drew

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hundreds if not thousands of people to

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his remote

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homestead but supposedly these seances

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had

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musical accompanying accompaniment

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by the spirit okay well um

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that's that is uh quite fascinating and

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i just wanted to say here at uh

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shattered reality

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we are very very interested in all

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aspects

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of the paranormal uh and parapsychology

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and most of all consciousness so at the

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beginning

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you state that you are not going to

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comment on the veracity

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not going to judge and i think that is

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uh

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extremely astute on your part and um

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you could become the anthropologist as

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well as the journalist by doing this

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it's hard enough to decide about events

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that you're present for like the reality

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of events that you're actually in the

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room for

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and then you extrapolate one step

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farther and

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talk to people in the current realm

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people who are still alive and um they

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will relate to you certain experiences

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that they might have

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and then you have to i don't mean you

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sharon have to but one has to

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decide well you know how do i feel about

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that is that

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true is that false and and then

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we have to look back into the past

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as you are doing with this where

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no one um is alive anymore from the

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1850s which is the basic

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error uh that uh your story

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uh enchanted ground takes place so i

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think that it's very astute of you

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not to judge

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um how do you how do you how did you

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come to that

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decision not to judge the veracity

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well i had to take off my usual

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journalistic hat

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and put on a hat um more of a historian

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of religion

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and um because i realize that when

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you're talking about

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mental events like spiritual experiences

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that you can't really judge a mental

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event

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as to whether if someone said i i heard

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a voice talking to me or i saw a vision

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and it really meant a lot to me then i

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think you have to

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respect the person's report and not

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try to decide if that

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real or unreal on the other hand i do

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think it's

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kind of interesting to try to figure out

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exactly what

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went on in the seance without judging it

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excellent excellent um your historical

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aspects

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in this book are extraordinarily well

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researched um

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many people don't learn the intricacies

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of

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an overview basically

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where you hear about the wars the

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presidents the laws passed

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uh but not the spiritual zeitgeist of

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the people

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and i kind of feel like you really

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delved into

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that aspect of making

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the history not only of athens ohio

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but the whole um

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you know the whole region you made it a

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lot

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more understandable to people than

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a high school history text would

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well i know that i was never taught

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anything about

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religious history much at all in school

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so

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this was a great learning experience for

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me and

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what i learned is that the times that

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the people were living in

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in the 1850s right before the civil war

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was in a way a lot like our times today

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a very deeply divided country

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and a country that was shaken to the

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core

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by technological advances and people

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were really looking for something that

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they could

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believe in and hang on to and also

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they really wanted to get away from this

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calvinistic notion that

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of hellfire and brimstone was going to

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be rained down

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on the large majority of the people and

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only the elect would be

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spared and they really were looking to

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spiritualism as a more positive

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more progressive way of seeing not only

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this world but the afterlife

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well yeah i i would certainly agree that

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there were

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um aspects of the story that you wrote

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that reflected

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the divisions in today's um

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life i i'm going to skip ahead to just

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one thing and i

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i don't want to get too far ahead on the

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story but being as you had mentioned

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that

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i was thinking last night so much uh

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as i was reviewing my notes about

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at the point at which some person or

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persons

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burned his barn down um and

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i i just that reminded me of a lot of

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violence that

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goes on today and um

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it sort of seems to me as though i can

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no

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can understand

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you know if you rape my sister then i go

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and beat you up to a bloody pulp but i

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don't have a sister and nobody's been

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raped

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but you get where i'm going with that

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that is an understandable

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animal reaction but it's so hard for me

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to understand

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people getting so fired up over

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uh differences in in spiritual thought

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that they would go in there and burn the

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man's barn down when he hadn't done

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anything to them except for

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you know have a gathering at his home

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which it would seem to me

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that in the bill of rights you're

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allowed to do that right

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yes you're allowed to assemble and

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you're also allowed to worship

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according to the first amendment however

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you choose to worship

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however there was a lot of intolerance

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then as there is now

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and mainstream christianity was the

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prevalent

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religion not only their area but of the

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united states

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and a lot of the um well not a lot but

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at least some of the folks thought that

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jonathan coons

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was worshiped worshipping the devil he

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was not the devil was not a part of his

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theology no but under this conception

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that they

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they did uh torches barn just a few

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months after he had started the spirit

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room

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wow well let's let's move more towards

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the beginning of the story

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and um he started out in

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a community in pennsylvania

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and his father spoke of

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a mysterious light traversing the ridge

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in that community where he had started

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out in pennsylvania

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and um it it sounds to me

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like that would be very very similar

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to um today's

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um accounts of of ufos

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well that's a very interesting point

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which i really hadn't thought of but

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um i guess i had thought more like in

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terms of the swamp gas or something like

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that but

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i think it's certainly open to many

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different interpretations

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and so his father peter koontz um

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was a presbyterian farmer there in

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bedford county pennsylvania but

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interestingly enough he also according

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to jonathan

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uh had certain healing powers and he he

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was part of the

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pennsylvania dutch powwow tradition

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where

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it was a christian tradition but it goes

289
00:12:32,230 --> 00:12:30,079
all the way back to the middle ages

290
00:12:33,430 --> 00:12:32,240
and they believed that they could heal

291
00:12:36,790 --> 00:12:33,440
people

292
00:12:38,389 --> 00:12:36,800
through chanting and sort of invoking

293
00:12:41,990 --> 00:12:38,399
the divine

294
00:12:45,670 --> 00:12:42,000
yes it's a very i've i've spoken to some

295
00:12:46,230 --> 00:12:45,680
folks um about this pow-wow tradition

296
00:12:49,350 --> 00:12:46,240
and

297
00:12:53,350 --> 00:12:49,360
to state

298
00:12:55,190 --> 00:12:53,360
that although pow wow we consider

299
00:12:56,389 --> 00:12:55,200
in in the united states for the most

300
00:12:59,590 --> 00:12:56,399
part to be

301
00:13:00,790 --> 00:12:59,600
a group of uh native americans getting

302
00:13:02,550 --> 00:13:00,800
together for a

303
00:13:04,150 --> 00:13:02,560
a meeting which would be called the

304
00:13:07,269 --> 00:13:04,160
pow-wow also

305
00:13:08,550 --> 00:13:07,279
uh powwow the pennsylvania dutch pow-wow

306
00:13:11,190 --> 00:13:08,560
really comes

307
00:13:13,269 --> 00:13:11,200
from uh a an old medieval german

308
00:13:15,910 --> 00:13:13,279
tradition is that correct

309
00:13:17,750 --> 00:13:15,920
i believe it is and you're certainly

310
00:13:19,829 --> 00:13:17,760
wise to point out that it doesn't have

311
00:13:20,790 --> 00:13:19,839
anything to do with native americans

312
00:13:23,110 --> 00:13:20,800
it's more

313
00:13:24,470 --> 00:13:23,120
what i would call white magic going back

314
00:13:27,430 --> 00:13:24,480
to europe

315
00:13:29,030 --> 00:13:27,440
indeed and and um some people have the

316
00:13:32,389 --> 00:13:29,040
ability to stop

317
00:13:36,230 --> 00:13:32,399
bleeding in this manner and it it takes

318
00:13:37,030 --> 00:13:36,240
up a belief a strong positive belief to

319
00:13:40,069 --> 00:13:37,040
make it work

320
00:13:43,509 --> 00:13:40,079
for my understanding

321
00:13:47,430 --> 00:13:43,519
now jonathan coons as a boy

322
00:13:51,189 --> 00:13:47,440
his meditations took him places

323
00:13:52,389 --> 00:13:51,199
he had liminal state adventures liminal

324
00:13:55,910 --> 00:13:52,399
state meaning

325
00:13:58,949 --> 00:13:55,920
that excuse me

326
00:14:02,150 --> 00:13:58,959
that he he traveled

327
00:14:05,350 --> 00:14:02,160
in the time prior to falling asleep and

328
00:14:07,189 --> 00:14:05,360
then um hypno-pompic i believe it's

329
00:14:09,189 --> 00:14:07,199
called when you're just waking up

330
00:14:10,470 --> 00:14:09,199
but liminal state for me works for

331
00:14:12,870 --> 00:14:10,480
either now

332
00:14:13,829 --> 00:14:12,880
some of these adventures were very

333
00:14:18,230 --> 00:14:13,839
similar to

334
00:14:20,710 --> 00:14:18,240
today's um out-of-body experiences

335
00:14:22,550 --> 00:14:20,720
um and what what might you say about

336
00:14:25,350 --> 00:14:22,560
those uh

337
00:14:26,069 --> 00:14:25,360
meditations that he did before when he

338
00:14:30,550 --> 00:14:26,079
was still

339
00:14:34,230 --> 00:14:30,560
in bedford pennsylvania area

340
00:14:35,110 --> 00:14:34,240
well first he had a spiritual crisis

341
00:14:36,949 --> 00:14:35,120
because

342
00:14:38,150 --> 00:14:36,959
and i can really identify with this

343
00:14:40,629 --> 00:14:38,160
myself

344
00:14:42,310 --> 00:14:40,639
but he had a spiritual crisis when he

345
00:14:45,110 --> 00:14:42,320
was a little boy because he

346
00:14:45,910 --> 00:14:45,120
literally believed that he was going to

347
00:14:48,790 --> 00:14:45,920
go to hell

348
00:14:51,110 --> 00:14:48,800
because he could not be perfect enough

349
00:14:54,230 --> 00:14:51,120
that he was always going to be sinful

350
00:14:56,470 --> 00:14:54,240
and so he fell into a deep melancholy

351
00:14:57,590 --> 00:14:56,480
and his family actually became worried

352
00:14:59,829 --> 00:14:57,600
about him because

353
00:15:01,030 --> 00:14:59,839
he wasn't able to snap out of it and

354
00:15:04,629 --> 00:15:01,040
finally

355
00:15:07,110 --> 00:15:04,639
he saw a vision of an angel or an

356
00:15:08,790 --> 00:15:07,120
older figure that took him through the

357
00:15:11,189 --> 00:15:08,800
realms of heaven

358
00:15:13,350 --> 00:15:11,199
and this is the thing that cured him and

359
00:15:17,910 --> 00:15:13,360
was able to bring him out of his

360
00:15:21,110 --> 00:15:17,920
very depressed state but it also

361
00:15:24,389 --> 00:15:21,120
helped him start meditating on a regular

362
00:15:26,069 --> 00:15:24,399
basis and jonathan coons called it

363
00:15:29,269 --> 00:15:26,079
painting on his visionary

364
00:15:32,710 --> 00:15:29,279
canvases but i feel that his

365
00:15:34,790 --> 00:15:32,720
getting into meditation and what you

366
00:15:37,269 --> 00:15:34,800
may call out-of-body experiences at a

367
00:15:39,670 --> 00:15:37,279
young age i feel that that really

368
00:15:40,870 --> 00:15:39,680
set the stage later for him to become a

369
00:15:44,310 --> 00:15:40,880
medium

370
00:15:45,269 --> 00:15:44,320
i i believe so too because the ability

371
00:15:49,189 --> 00:15:45,279
to

372
00:15:52,790 --> 00:15:49,199
have liminal state experiences

373
00:15:56,310 --> 00:15:52,800
would make others psychic functioning

374
00:16:00,150 --> 00:15:56,320
more probable uh i i'm trying to

375
00:16:01,110 --> 00:16:00,160
to draw some um correlation in a few

376
00:16:04,470 --> 00:16:01,120
places

377
00:16:06,069 --> 00:16:04,480
to things that would work in the modern

378
00:16:08,790 --> 00:16:06,079
day vocabulary

379
00:16:10,470 --> 00:16:08,800
just so people uh who are listening to

380
00:16:11,269 --> 00:16:10,480
this and who might want to read your

381
00:16:14,310 --> 00:16:11,279
book

382
00:16:15,990 --> 00:16:14,320
would get a picture of uh of how it

383
00:16:19,110 --> 00:16:16,000
relates to

384
00:16:21,269 --> 00:16:19,120
uh today's like sort of shall we say new

385
00:16:21,990 --> 00:16:21,279
age spirituality i don't really like the

386
00:16:26,389 --> 00:16:22,000
term new age

387
00:16:28,949 --> 00:16:26,399
but that kind of uh gives an idea

388
00:16:29,509 --> 00:16:28,959
yeah there is or there is a relationship

389
00:16:32,710 --> 00:16:29,519
between

390
00:16:34,470 --> 00:16:32,720
the mediumistic practices they had and

391
00:16:38,870 --> 00:16:34,480
then the channeling that came

392
00:16:42,629 --> 00:16:38,880
later so uh basically

393
00:16:45,749 --> 00:16:42,639
uh could you just tell us in bedford

394
00:16:47,189 --> 00:16:45,759
uh pennsylvania in today's bedford

395
00:16:50,550 --> 00:16:47,199
county pennsylvania

396
00:16:53,590 --> 00:16:50,560
what is the main city or town

397
00:16:57,590 --> 00:16:53,600
bedford bedford okay good enough

398
00:17:02,230 --> 00:16:57,600
um so he left pennsylvania

399
00:17:06,710 --> 00:17:02,240
um and traveled with his uh new wife

400
00:17:08,870 --> 00:17:06,720
uh to um to ohio to live do you wanna do

401
00:17:11,909 --> 00:17:08,880
you wanna speak to that a little bit

402
00:17:14,230 --> 00:17:11,919
sure he actually hadn't met her uh yet

403
00:17:15,750 --> 00:17:14,240
his wife abigail he met her after he got

404
00:17:18,870 --> 00:17:15,760
to athens county

405
00:17:20,870 --> 00:17:18,880
but the reason uh he moved was because

406
00:17:22,309 --> 00:17:20,880
the same reason a lot of people moved

407
00:17:25,350 --> 00:17:22,319
west they wanted

408
00:17:27,189 --> 00:17:25,360
cheap land the population was exploding

409
00:17:28,789 --> 00:17:27,199
and they had to keep having more room

410
00:17:31,590 --> 00:17:28,799
and of course that meant

411
00:17:32,070 --> 00:17:31,600
displacing the native americans but by

412
00:17:34,950 --> 00:17:32,080
the time

413
00:17:36,310 --> 00:17:34,960
jonathan came over to athens county from

414
00:17:40,549 --> 00:17:36,320
bedford

415
00:17:43,990 --> 00:17:40,559
in 1835 the indians had already been

416
00:17:47,029 --> 00:17:44,000
run out of our area and he came

417
00:17:47,669 --> 00:17:47,039
and bought a couple hundred acres of

418
00:17:51,190 --> 00:17:47,679
land

419
00:17:51,750 --> 00:17:51,200
on top of a ridge and i call that mount

420
00:17:54,549 --> 00:17:51,760
nebo

421
00:17:56,150 --> 00:17:54,559
in the story which yes it was later

422
00:17:57,909 --> 00:17:56,160
called mountain evo it wasn't called

423
00:17:59,590 --> 00:17:57,919
that at the time but it's just a more

424
00:18:03,029 --> 00:17:59,600
descriptive term

425
00:18:06,630 --> 00:18:03,039
he built a farmhouse there

426
00:18:09,510 --> 00:18:06,640
and he found a wife who was a lady from

427
00:18:11,430 --> 00:18:09,520
new hampshire named abigail bishop

428
00:18:14,310 --> 00:18:11,440
and they got married after a summer

429
00:18:15,990 --> 00:18:14,320
romance in 1836

430
00:18:17,590 --> 00:18:16,000
and they eventually moved to this

431
00:18:21,590 --> 00:18:17,600
hilltop farm

432
00:18:23,750 --> 00:18:21,600
and for the first decade or 15 years of

433
00:18:26,630 --> 00:18:23,760
their marriage it was totally

434
00:18:27,510 --> 00:18:26,640
conventional as far as i can tell except

435
00:18:30,150 --> 00:18:27,520
that

436
00:18:32,549 --> 00:18:30,160
jonathan had become an infidel he had

437
00:18:35,669 --> 00:18:32,559
lost his religion

438
00:18:36,150 --> 00:18:35,679
and uh he wasn't a churchgoer at that

439
00:18:40,830 --> 00:18:36,160
point

440
00:18:43,029 --> 00:18:40,840
and in 1852 he says that he converted to

441
00:18:44,150 --> 00:18:43,039
spiritualism and his wife was very

442
00:18:46,150 --> 00:18:44,160
supportive

443
00:18:47,990 --> 00:18:46,160
of his efforts despite the fact that

444
00:18:52,070 --> 00:18:48,000
abigail was the daughter

445
00:18:52,710 --> 00:18:52,080
of a baptist minister so yeah so he was

446
00:18:54,710 --> 00:18:52,720
really

447
00:18:55,830 --> 00:18:54,720
attracted to abigail because he said

448
00:18:59,029 --> 00:18:55,840
that she was a free

449
00:19:00,230 --> 00:18:59,039
thinker and so they had a life together

450
00:19:02,630 --> 00:19:00,240
they had 10

451
00:19:03,750 --> 00:19:02,640
biological children and one adopted

452
00:19:06,789 --> 00:19:03,760
child

453
00:19:08,830 --> 00:19:06,799
and they settled in as farmers and but

454
00:19:09,990 --> 00:19:08,840
soon as soon as they started

455
00:19:13,669 --> 00:19:10,000
spiritualism

456
00:19:15,669 --> 00:19:13,679
things really changed i wanna i i wanna

457
00:19:17,909 --> 00:19:15,679
pause for a second because i wanna get

458
00:19:21,190 --> 00:19:17,919
right into that but i wanna pause

459
00:19:24,549 --> 00:19:21,200
for a second uh to tell you

460
00:19:25,909 --> 00:19:24,559
um to speak to the johnny appleseed part

461
00:19:28,950 --> 00:19:25,919
of the story

462
00:19:30,070 --> 00:19:28,960
simply because johnny appleseed to me

463
00:19:34,310 --> 00:19:30,080
was always a

464
00:19:37,669 --> 00:19:34,320
fascinating character uh and no one in

465
00:19:40,870 --> 00:19:37,679
the general history books

466
00:19:45,430 --> 00:19:40,880
ever said anything about him being

467
00:19:49,510 --> 00:19:45,440
a swedenborgian mystic himself

468
00:19:51,510 --> 00:19:49,520
and so he he just fascinated me because

469
00:19:54,870 --> 00:19:51,520
he was a vegetarian

470
00:19:58,870 --> 00:19:54,880
and he did plant many many

471
00:20:01,270 --> 00:19:58,880
apple trees um in the united states

472
00:20:03,270 --> 00:20:01,280
though in my memory i didn't remember

473
00:20:05,590 --> 00:20:03,280
exactly where he had planted them

474
00:20:06,710 --> 00:20:05,600
but do you want to speak to that just a

475
00:20:08,870 --> 00:20:06,720
little bit because

476
00:20:10,230 --> 00:20:08,880
i think it's a fascinating uh

477
00:20:13,830 --> 00:20:10,240
correlation

478
00:20:16,789 --> 00:20:13,840
to the times of um jonathan

479
00:20:18,470 --> 00:20:16,799
coons and johnny appleseed also known as

480
00:20:22,310 --> 00:20:18,480
john chapman

481
00:20:23,750 --> 00:20:22,320
was was practicing at the same time and

482
00:20:26,630 --> 00:20:23,760
it's quite

483
00:20:29,110 --> 00:20:26,640
possible even probable that they met one

484
00:20:35,029 --> 00:20:32,230
well um the swedenborgian aspect of the

485
00:20:38,310 --> 00:20:35,039
story is very interesting to me because

486
00:20:40,710 --> 00:20:38,320
a lot of the spiritualists

487
00:20:42,149 --> 00:20:40,720
took part of their philosophy from

488
00:20:45,590 --> 00:20:42,159
swedenborg

489
00:20:47,190 --> 00:20:45,600
he was a swedish scientist and also as

490
00:20:50,950 --> 00:20:47,200
you said a mystic

491
00:20:52,950 --> 00:20:50,960
one of his most famous exploits as a

492
00:20:55,430 --> 00:20:52,960
mystic was when he was

493
00:20:58,070 --> 00:20:55,440
over in sweden and he was hundreds of

494
00:21:00,630 --> 00:20:58,080
miles from his home in stockholm

495
00:21:02,149 --> 00:21:00,640
and yet he saw a vision that the city

496
00:21:05,190 --> 00:21:02,159
was on fire

497
00:21:07,830 --> 00:21:05,200
and that he his own house was almost

498
00:21:10,789 --> 00:21:07,840
about to be consumed by the flames

499
00:21:13,190 --> 00:21:10,799
luckily it was spared but he was able to

500
00:21:16,070 --> 00:21:13,200
relate this story at a dinner party

501
00:21:18,470 --> 00:21:16,080
as it was occurring and it took a couple

502
00:21:20,870 --> 00:21:18,480
days for any couriers to come from

503
00:21:23,830 --> 00:21:20,880
stockholm to tell anyone

504
00:21:28,390 --> 00:21:23,840
the news about the fire and so

505
00:21:32,870 --> 00:21:30,950
to the united states and there there was

506
00:21:35,029 --> 00:21:32,880
a group of followers who started the

507
00:21:37,909 --> 00:21:35,039
church of the new jerusalem

508
00:21:38,230 --> 00:21:37,919
and johnny appleseed was a very devoted

509
00:21:43,270 --> 00:21:38,240
uh

510
00:21:47,350 --> 00:21:43,280
christianity

511
00:21:47,669 --> 00:21:47,360
and um he after he left the east coast

512
00:21:51,029 --> 00:21:47,679
he

513
00:21:52,789 --> 00:21:51,039
lived in ohio for quite some time uh and

514
00:21:55,750 --> 00:21:52,799
he would

515
00:21:58,310 --> 00:21:55,760
go get seeds and plant trees and also

516
00:22:01,590 --> 00:21:58,320
sort of anticipate where the

517
00:22:04,710 --> 00:22:01,600
frontier would be moving on and so

518
00:22:07,430 --> 00:22:04,720
he was not only a businessman selling

519
00:22:10,789 --> 00:22:07,440
the apple trees but he was going around

520
00:22:12,149 --> 00:22:10,799
spreading his brand of religion and he

521
00:22:14,870 --> 00:22:12,159
called it good news

522
00:22:16,390 --> 00:22:14,880
because he felt that it was giving

523
00:22:19,669 --> 00:22:16,400
people more control

524
00:22:21,830 --> 00:22:19,679
over their own destiny instead of this

525
00:22:26,390 --> 00:22:21,840
dark gloomy picture

526
00:22:29,430 --> 00:22:26,400
and he did um travel around

527
00:22:33,029 --> 00:22:29,440
in the same area of ohio

528
00:22:38,070 --> 00:22:33,039
where jonathan coons and his family

529
00:22:39,990 --> 00:22:38,080
lived at the same time is that true

530
00:22:41,350 --> 00:22:40,000
there is some overlap there you're

531
00:22:46,310 --> 00:22:41,360
absolutely right because

532
00:22:47,110 --> 00:22:46,320
jonathan moved in 1835 to athens county

533
00:22:50,070 --> 00:22:47,120
and

534
00:22:52,149 --> 00:22:50,080
johnny appleseed did not move to indy

535
00:22:53,830 --> 00:22:52,159
anna until 1845

536
00:22:55,590 --> 00:22:53,840
they could have overlapped and it's

537
00:22:59,029 --> 00:22:55,600
certainly documented that

538
00:23:00,630 --> 00:22:59,039
johnny applesd did travel through athens

539
00:23:03,830 --> 00:23:00,640
county

540
00:23:07,430 --> 00:23:03,840
okay well that is an

541
00:23:08,549 --> 00:23:07,440
interesting correlation now we get to

542
00:23:12,630 --> 00:23:08,559
the part

543
00:23:13,750 --> 00:23:12,640
um where up in rochester i think it was

544
00:23:17,190 --> 00:23:13,760
new york

545
00:23:19,110 --> 00:23:17,200
uh the uh was it rochester that the fox

546
00:23:20,310 --> 00:23:19,120
uh fox sisters do i have the right town

547
00:23:23,909 --> 00:23:20,320
probably not

548
00:23:27,190 --> 00:23:23,919
um where the fox sisters were practicing

549
00:23:28,230 --> 00:23:27,200
their wrapping their table table

550
00:23:31,590 --> 00:23:28,240
wrapping

551
00:23:34,630 --> 00:23:31,600
and this kind of became a very

552
00:23:37,830 --> 00:23:34,640
prominent feature of spiritualist

553
00:23:41,190 --> 00:23:37,840
gatherings for quite some time

554
00:23:43,830 --> 00:23:41,200
so much so that there was a young lady

555
00:23:45,190 --> 00:23:43,840
in the neighborhood of jonathan coon's

556
00:23:48,310 --> 00:23:45,200
name mary jane

557
00:23:51,830 --> 00:23:48,320
paston who

558
00:23:55,110 --> 00:23:51,840
was working there as a

559
00:23:57,830 --> 00:23:55,120
rapper and i i used that uh

560
00:23:58,549 --> 00:23:57,840
term simply because it's it's a little

561
00:24:01,190 --> 00:23:58,559
humorous

562
00:24:02,310 --> 00:24:01,200
in terms of today's thoughts about

563
00:24:05,990 --> 00:24:02,320
rappers being

564
00:24:09,350 --> 00:24:06,000
musicians who us speak uh

565
00:24:13,669 --> 00:24:09,360
speak poetry in in in rhythmical ways

566
00:24:16,710 --> 00:24:13,679
uh today so um so mary jane paston

567
00:24:24,070 --> 00:24:21,029
uh inspired jonathan coons yes

568
00:24:25,909 --> 00:24:24,080
well uh she was a very pivotal figure in

569
00:24:28,950 --> 00:24:25,919
his life because

570
00:24:31,269 --> 00:24:28,960
at that point he uh was very skeptical

571
00:24:34,950 --> 00:24:31,279
of the spiritualism movement

572
00:24:37,350 --> 00:24:34,960
and he was determined to be a debunker

573
00:24:39,110 --> 00:24:37,360
so it's very much like the story in

574
00:24:41,110 --> 00:24:39,120
christianity of saul

575
00:24:42,390 --> 00:24:41,120
on the road to damascus where he's

576
00:24:45,430 --> 00:24:42,400
converted

577
00:24:49,110 --> 00:24:45,440
jonathan coons went to the salon

578
00:24:51,190 --> 00:24:49,120
that was conducted by mary jane paston

579
00:24:53,350 --> 00:24:51,200
and he went there thinking he would show

580
00:24:56,070 --> 00:24:53,360
what a fraud everything was

581
00:24:56,950 --> 00:24:56,080
and instead he was told that he was

582
00:24:59,590 --> 00:24:56,960
going to become

583
00:25:02,950 --> 00:24:59,600
become a great medium and the others in

584
00:25:05,669 --> 00:25:02,960
his family would become mediums as well

585
00:25:07,110 --> 00:25:05,679
and so his skepticism quickly dissolves

586
00:25:09,110 --> 00:25:07,120
and he starts

587
00:25:10,230 --> 00:25:09,120
an apprenticeship to learn the

588
00:25:13,510 --> 00:25:10,240
mediumistic

589
00:25:17,269 --> 00:25:13,520
skills well

590
00:25:19,590 --> 00:25:17,279
that is extremely that's extremely

591
00:25:20,710 --> 00:25:19,600
interesting that he sort of was uh

592
00:25:24,470 --> 00:25:20,720
converted

593
00:25:27,110 --> 00:25:24,480
towards spiritualism at the gatherings

594
00:25:28,470 --> 00:25:27,120
but mary jane she stopped she stopped

595
00:25:31,990 --> 00:25:28,480
performing her

596
00:25:35,190 --> 00:25:32,000
her um rapping after a point

597
00:25:36,549 --> 00:25:35,200
and uh and jonathan coons began his i

598
00:25:39,430 --> 00:25:36,559
have to ask you he

599
00:25:40,950 --> 00:25:39,440
he was a very prolific fellow he had 10

600
00:25:44,870 --> 00:25:40,960
children

601
00:25:47,750 --> 00:25:44,880
and how many of those lived to adulthood

602
00:25:49,110 --> 00:25:47,760
well he had a daughter fellinia who died

603
00:25:52,630 --> 00:25:49,120
when she was

604
00:25:55,830 --> 00:25:52,640
uh 12 years old of a heart condition

605
00:25:57,830 --> 00:25:55,840
and then the and then later on he had a

606
00:26:01,110 --> 00:25:57,840
14 year old

607
00:26:04,070 --> 00:26:01,120
son who died of typhoid and an adopted

608
00:26:06,149 --> 00:26:04,080
girl who died of typhoid so eight of

609
00:26:08,070 --> 00:26:06,159
them lived to be adult

610
00:26:10,549 --> 00:26:08,080
and i have to ask you about one of the

611
00:26:14,230 --> 00:26:10,559
names the names were very unusual

612
00:26:17,590 --> 00:26:14,240
to me um and not unheard of but one was

613
00:26:18,149 --> 00:26:17,600
like blew my mind which was a a boy

614
00:26:21,350 --> 00:26:18,159
named

615
00:26:22,390 --> 00:26:21,360
cinderellas isn't that amazing i don't

616
00:26:24,710 --> 00:26:22,400
know where they came

617
00:26:25,990 --> 00:26:24,720
up with these names that they are quite

618
00:26:29,029 --> 00:26:26,000
unusual even

619
00:26:31,590 --> 00:26:29,039
for that time period i think uh i think

620
00:26:32,710 --> 00:26:31,600
so and the cinderellas just blew me away

621
00:26:34,710 --> 00:26:32,720
because

622
00:26:36,070 --> 00:26:34,720
i can't help thinking of the fairy tale

623
00:26:39,510 --> 00:26:36,080
of cinderella

624
00:26:42,549 --> 00:26:39,520
which i think was sort of um

625
00:26:43,750 --> 00:26:42,559
of cl not cleansed but cleaned up i

626
00:26:46,470 --> 00:26:43,760
would say by uh

627
00:26:49,029 --> 00:26:46,480
the walt disney people that cinderella

628
00:26:52,310 --> 00:26:49,039
was really a french folk tale

629
00:26:53,110 --> 00:26:52,320
of from the past do you know much about

630
00:26:55,350 --> 00:26:53,120
that or

631
00:26:57,029 --> 00:26:55,360
is that some something that we should

632
00:27:00,710 --> 00:26:57,039
just move past

633
00:27:03,269 --> 00:27:00,720
but i was kind of uh blown away by

634
00:27:04,830 --> 00:27:03,279
by that that nickname or that uh given

635
00:27:07,909 --> 00:27:04,840
name of a young man

636
00:27:10,870 --> 00:27:07,919
cinderellas and wondered if it had any

637
00:27:14,230 --> 00:27:10,880
correlation to um the actual original

638
00:27:16,710 --> 00:27:14,240
french folk tale of cinderella

639
00:27:19,590 --> 00:27:16,720
i will have to divert defer to you on

640
00:27:21,750 --> 00:27:19,600
that one purusha i'm really not familiar

641
00:27:23,750 --> 00:27:21,760
with the background or how he got the

642
00:27:27,269 --> 00:27:23,760
name but i would mention

643
00:27:29,149 --> 00:27:27,279
another son the oldest son his name was

644
00:27:32,870 --> 00:27:29,159
from the bible

645
00:27:35,909 --> 00:27:32,880
n-a-h-u-m but instead of pronouncing it

646
00:27:40,470 --> 00:27:35,919
nahum they pronounced that nim as if

647
00:27:43,990 --> 00:27:40,480
it were nim oh and this young man nem

648
00:27:46,230 --> 00:27:44,000
was the principal medium at the seances

649
00:27:49,430 --> 00:27:46,240
and he was supposed to be the standout

650
00:27:52,389 --> 00:27:49,440
talent of all the children

651
00:27:54,149 --> 00:27:52,399
and usually if something if he were

652
00:27:58,870 --> 00:27:54,159
absent for some reason

653
00:28:02,470 --> 00:27:58,880
usually not very much happened i see so

654
00:28:05,510 --> 00:28:02,480
he was considered to be uh actually

655
00:28:06,630 --> 00:28:05,520
even more powerful a medium than his

656
00:28:09,590 --> 00:28:06,640
father

657
00:28:10,470 --> 00:28:09,600
yes i believe so although jonathan was

658
00:28:13,190 --> 00:28:10,480
extremely

659
00:28:16,149 --> 00:28:13,200
creative um i could tell you just a

660
00:28:19,110 --> 00:28:16,159
little bit about how the seances

661
00:28:20,310 --> 00:28:19,120
went and you can see how that he really

662
00:28:23,590 --> 00:28:20,320
innovated he

663
00:28:24,549 --> 00:28:23,600
moved so far beyond uh rapping would you

664
00:28:26,950 --> 00:28:24,559
like for me to

665
00:28:29,110 --> 00:28:26,960
just kind of tell you the layout sure go

666
00:28:31,750 --> 00:28:29,120
right ahead

667
00:28:32,389 --> 00:28:31,760
well they would they jonathan built a

668
00:28:35,350 --> 00:28:32,399
room

669
00:28:38,070 --> 00:28:35,360
a log cabin beside of his home and

670
00:28:39,590 --> 00:28:38,080
dedicated it just for the seances it was

671
00:28:42,950 --> 00:28:39,600
a single room

672
00:28:45,269 --> 00:28:42,960
about 12 feet by 16 feet and

673
00:28:47,830 --> 00:28:45,279
they would shut it up very tightly to

674
00:28:50,470 --> 00:28:47,840
where no light could come in

675
00:28:50,950 --> 00:28:50,480
and the seances would be conducted in

676
00:28:54,789 --> 00:28:50,960
pitch

677
00:28:58,070 --> 00:28:54,799
dark jonathan would start out

678
00:29:00,149 --> 00:28:58,080
with a candle and he also would play the

679
00:29:02,149 --> 00:29:00,159
fiddle he would blow out the candle

680
00:29:03,830 --> 00:29:02,159
he would start playing the fiddle and

681
00:29:07,029 --> 00:29:03,840
other instruments would join

682
00:29:08,870 --> 00:29:07,039
in so the audience is experiencing all

683
00:29:10,710 --> 00:29:08,880
this in the dark so

684
00:29:12,310 --> 00:29:10,720
they're hearing things a lot more than

685
00:29:15,510 --> 00:29:12,320
they're seeing them

686
00:29:18,070 --> 00:29:15,520
they also had a trumpet that uh

687
00:29:18,630 --> 00:29:18,080
supposedly levitated and this voice

688
00:29:20,950 --> 00:29:18,640
would

689
00:29:22,070 --> 00:29:20,960
come through the trumpet and sometimes

690
00:29:24,389 --> 00:29:22,080
just

691
00:29:26,070 --> 00:29:24,399
engage in light banter with the audience

692
00:29:29,190 --> 00:29:26,080
but many times he would give

693
00:29:30,630 --> 00:29:29,200
sermons and this spiritual guide that

694
00:29:33,990 --> 00:29:30,640
came through the trumpet

695
00:29:38,149 --> 00:29:34,000
was known as king k-i-n-g

696
00:29:42,789 --> 00:29:38,159
and so these seances were very lively

697
00:29:44,789 --> 00:29:42,799
very entertaining and people flocked to

698
00:29:46,310 --> 00:29:44,799
experience this sometimes there were

699
00:29:48,870 --> 00:29:46,320
waiting lists

700
00:29:51,029 --> 00:29:48,880
now one other aspect of the seance that

701
00:29:54,870 --> 00:29:51,039
was the most spectacular

702
00:29:58,070 --> 00:29:54,880
effect was disembodied hands

703
00:30:00,310 --> 00:29:58,080
they called them spectral hands and

704
00:30:02,950 --> 00:30:00,320
um they would come out and write

705
00:30:04,950 --> 00:30:02,960
messages to people in the audience

706
00:30:07,590 --> 00:30:04,960
and the way that these hands could be

707
00:30:09,909 --> 00:30:07,600
seen was that jonathan coons would make

708
00:30:12,950 --> 00:30:09,919
up a phosphorous solution

709
00:30:14,950 --> 00:30:12,960
that could be used to illuminate the

710
00:30:18,549 --> 00:30:14,960
hand

711
00:30:22,230 --> 00:30:18,559
well that's that is uh that is kind of

712
00:30:25,350 --> 00:30:22,240
typical in fact of many uh

713
00:30:28,789 --> 00:30:25,360
gatherings of this sort of um

714
00:30:32,070 --> 00:30:28,799
what we would call physical mediums now

715
00:30:34,630 --> 00:30:32,080
um the the uh

716
00:30:35,590 --> 00:30:34,640
the the thing that i would mention here

717
00:30:38,710 --> 00:30:35,600
is that

718
00:30:39,590 --> 00:30:38,720
you had said that perhaps coons was the

719
00:30:42,870 --> 00:30:39,600
actual

720
00:30:45,029 --> 00:30:42,880
developer of the spiritualist trumpet

721
00:30:45,990 --> 00:30:45,039
which is still in use today in

722
00:30:48,070 --> 00:30:46,000
spiritualist

723
00:30:52,310 --> 00:30:48,080
circles the idea of this sort of

724
00:30:58,070 --> 00:30:54,870
uh yes he's considered the innovator of

725
00:30:59,750 --> 00:30:58,080
the trumpet he's about the first one

726
00:31:01,509 --> 00:30:59,760
that it was reported on in the

727
00:31:04,789 --> 00:31:01,519
spiritualist press that

728
00:31:05,509 --> 00:31:04,799
that used that particular device now the

729
00:31:08,310 --> 00:31:05,519
hands

730
00:31:10,070 --> 00:31:08,320
uh we're not sure where that first

731
00:31:13,590 --> 00:31:10,080
manifested but one of the most

732
00:31:16,149 --> 00:31:13,600
interesting stories to me came from

733
00:31:17,269 --> 00:31:16,159
of england where the poet elizabeth

734
00:31:20,310 --> 00:31:17,279
browning

735
00:31:20,870 --> 00:31:20,320
is attending a stay on by a man named

736
00:31:24,710 --> 00:31:20,880
d.d

737
00:31:28,789 --> 00:31:24,720
hume oh yes and a hand

738
00:31:31,990 --> 00:31:28,799
comes up and lays a garland on her head

739
00:31:34,630 --> 00:31:32,000
at the seance and she's so astonished

740
00:31:36,230 --> 00:31:34,640
that she writes a letter to her sister

741
00:31:40,630 --> 00:31:36,240
and documents it

742
00:31:43,750 --> 00:31:40,640
well dee dee hume is perhaps

743
00:31:47,830 --> 00:31:43,760
one of the most famous

744
00:31:50,549 --> 00:31:47,840
people uh in terms of parapsychological

745
00:31:51,990 --> 00:31:50,559
history um but the difference the one

746
00:31:52,950 --> 00:31:52,000
thing that and you bring this out in the

747
00:31:56,389 --> 00:31:52,960
book it's not

748
00:31:59,509 --> 00:31:56,399
um it's not that i'm i'm outing mr

749
00:32:02,470 --> 00:31:59,519
coons here but um dee dee hume

750
00:32:03,909 --> 00:32:02,480
did all his stuff in the light and he

751
00:32:07,110 --> 00:32:03,919
was critical

752
00:32:10,070 --> 00:32:07,120
of people who performed in the dark now

753
00:32:11,830 --> 00:32:10,080
he was of scottish background i believe

754
00:32:15,669 --> 00:32:11,840
but he was an orphan

755
00:32:18,389 --> 00:32:15,679
and he lived a lot of his life in uh

756
00:32:19,830 --> 00:32:18,399
in the hudson valley i believe of of the

757
00:32:23,750 --> 00:32:19,840
united states

758
00:32:27,029 --> 00:32:23,760
but he was seen uh come to levitate

759
00:32:27,990 --> 00:32:27,039
on more than one occasion to go out one

760
00:32:31,190 --> 00:32:28,000
window

761
00:32:34,549 --> 00:32:31,200
of of of a building and come in the next

762
00:32:37,110 --> 00:32:34,559
and um this uh he is

763
00:32:37,990 --> 00:32:37,120
really really very very well known but

764
00:32:40,070 --> 00:32:38,000
he did

765
00:32:43,110 --> 00:32:40,080
criticize those mediums who worked in

766
00:32:45,509 --> 00:32:43,120
the dark did he not

767
00:32:47,830 --> 00:32:45,519
absolutely he believed that that was

768
00:32:50,310 --> 00:32:47,840
only going to draw suspicion

769
00:32:52,549 --> 00:32:50,320
to the movement and that it was not a

770
00:32:55,509 --> 00:32:52,559
good way to go

771
00:32:56,549 --> 00:32:55,519
i'm a big admirer of mr hume because of

772
00:33:03,029 --> 00:32:56,559
his uh

773
00:33:06,389 --> 00:33:03,039
um and i find the the idea of levitation

774
00:33:09,029 --> 00:33:06,399
incredibly interesting um we have had

775
00:33:12,070 --> 00:33:09,039
guests on who have written about

776
00:33:15,190 --> 00:33:12,080
uh famous levitators and

777
00:33:18,950 --> 00:33:15,200
um it's it's just a very very

778
00:33:21,909 --> 00:33:18,960
amazing uh feat

779
00:33:22,950 --> 00:33:21,919
and i'm not talking about the indian

780
00:33:26,149 --> 00:33:22,960
yogis who

781
00:33:29,430 --> 00:33:26,159
sort of pop up out of a uh out of

782
00:33:32,630 --> 00:33:29,440
a lotus position which in itself is

783
00:33:34,950 --> 00:33:32,640
is quite a feat to be able to hop

784
00:33:36,310 --> 00:33:34,960
in a lotus position and they sometimes

785
00:33:39,430 --> 00:33:36,320
consider that to be

786
00:33:43,269 --> 00:33:39,440
levitation but uh i'm thinking

787
00:33:46,470 --> 00:33:43,279
more of some of the um

788
00:33:49,509 --> 00:33:46,480
spanish and italian mystics within

789
00:33:51,590 --> 00:33:49,519
the catholic church

790
00:33:53,509 --> 00:33:51,600
well this was one thing that coons never

791
00:33:56,789 --> 00:33:53,519
claimed to do he never

792
00:33:58,149 --> 00:33:56,799
claimed to do the levitation but getting

793
00:34:00,549 --> 00:33:58,159
back to him

794
00:34:02,710 --> 00:34:00,559
he also was reported to have been able

795
00:34:04,549 --> 00:34:02,720
to handle hot coals

796
00:34:06,149 --> 00:34:04,559
without getting burned which i thought

797
00:34:09,669 --> 00:34:06,159
was kind of interesting

798
00:34:12,869 --> 00:34:09,679
yes it absolutely is and um

799
00:34:15,510 --> 00:34:12,879
that is a is something that a lot of

800
00:34:17,669 --> 00:34:15,520
people not handling hot coals but

801
00:34:20,149 --> 00:34:17,679
running across hot coals

802
00:34:21,750 --> 00:34:20,159
people apparently and i i'm not one of

803
00:34:24,629 --> 00:34:21,760
them

804
00:34:26,790 --> 00:34:24,639
can be trained to walk across or run

805
00:34:27,589 --> 00:34:26,800
across hot coals without burning their

806
00:34:30,629 --> 00:34:27,599
feet

807
00:34:32,629 --> 00:34:30,639
as long as they maintain

808
00:34:34,230 --> 00:34:32,639
the right frame of mind but as soon as

809
00:34:37,990 --> 00:34:34,240
they experience fear

810
00:34:40,629 --> 00:34:38,000
and um other uh negative emotions

811
00:34:41,510 --> 00:34:40,639
they seem to get burned and i know that

812
00:34:44,550 --> 00:34:41,520
people

813
00:34:47,750 --> 00:34:44,560
teach others how to do this uh

814
00:34:47,990 --> 00:34:47,760
in one place in hawaii as as as well as

815
00:34:51,109 --> 00:34:48,000
other

816
00:34:54,389 --> 00:34:51,119
places around the us and elsewhere

817
00:34:57,990 --> 00:34:54,399
so um yes um

818
00:34:58,790 --> 00:34:58,000
dede hume was a very very interesting

819
00:35:02,710 --> 00:34:58,800
character

820
00:35:06,630 --> 00:35:02,720
and uh one of the few people who did

821
00:35:09,829 --> 00:35:06,640
levitate outside of a a church sort of

822
00:35:13,270 --> 00:35:09,839
setting in any case um

823
00:35:15,750 --> 00:35:13,280
i i made uh several trips actually too

824
00:35:17,270 --> 00:35:15,760
i'm thinking of specifically to the

825
00:35:20,790 --> 00:35:17,280
general area

826
00:35:23,829 --> 00:35:20,800
of athens ohio and

827
00:35:27,190 --> 00:35:23,839
um i have been uh

828
00:35:30,710 --> 00:35:27,200
very very aware in my visits and visited

829
00:35:34,870 --> 00:35:30,720
uh mounds the the mound builders uh

830
00:35:38,550 --> 00:35:34,880
things in um in nearby west virginia and

831
00:35:41,589 --> 00:35:38,560
in ohio and have had some very

832
00:35:43,829 --> 00:35:41,599
mystical experiences of my own in

833
00:35:44,630 --> 00:35:43,839
in that area that i'm not i'm not

834
00:35:48,630 --> 00:35:44,640
planning to go

835
00:35:51,349 --> 00:35:48,640
into right at the moment but um

836
00:35:52,470 --> 00:35:51,359
at a certain point in your book you do

837
00:35:55,750 --> 00:35:52,480
mention

838
00:35:59,430 --> 00:35:55,760
that you uh that the

839
00:36:02,870 --> 00:35:59,440
mineral um components

840
00:36:06,630 --> 00:36:02,880
of that area may have been thought

841
00:36:10,829 --> 00:36:06,640
to contribute to the

842
00:36:13,190 --> 00:36:10,839
outbursts of all this mediumistic

843
00:36:16,310 --> 00:36:13,200
phenomena

844
00:36:19,270 --> 00:36:16,320
yes i actually set the book up in three

845
00:36:19,589 --> 00:36:19,280
braids i call them braids and one of

846
00:36:22,950 --> 00:36:19,599
them

847
00:36:25,750 --> 00:36:22,960
is talking about what spiritualism is

848
00:36:25,990 --> 00:36:25,760
or was the second one is just telling

849
00:36:27,990 --> 00:36:26,000
the

850
00:36:29,829 --> 00:36:28,000
story of what happened to coons and his

851
00:36:33,430 --> 00:36:29,839
family but the third

852
00:36:34,790 --> 00:36:33,440
braid deals with using the location of

853
00:36:37,670 --> 00:36:34,800
athens county

854
00:36:39,670 --> 00:36:37,680
ohio as a character and this is where we

855
00:36:43,270 --> 00:36:39,680
get into the idea of the

856
00:36:46,950 --> 00:36:43,280
enchanted ground why did people think

857
00:36:51,430 --> 00:36:46,960
that this area had special

858
00:36:53,510 --> 00:36:51,440
um conductivity you might say of spirits

859
00:36:56,069 --> 00:36:53,520
and this is an idea that goes way back

860
00:36:59,510 --> 00:36:56,079
into the 1850s it's not

861
00:37:01,910 --> 00:36:59,520
a current or contemporary idea at all

862
00:37:05,030 --> 00:37:01,920
and i think coons had a lot to do with

863
00:37:08,230 --> 00:37:05,040
starting this idea because

864
00:37:11,190 --> 00:37:08,240
people somehow got the notion that

865
00:37:12,069 --> 00:37:11,200
his farm the area around it the rocks

866
00:37:15,510 --> 00:37:12,079
the trees

867
00:37:18,710 --> 00:37:15,520
the soil itself was somehow

868
00:37:20,950 --> 00:37:18,720
more conducive to drawing spirits now

869
00:37:21,990 --> 00:37:20,960
we haven't scientifically proven that

870
00:37:24,950 --> 00:37:22,000
idea but it

871
00:37:27,190 --> 00:37:24,960
is part of the lore and heritage of our

872
00:37:30,230 --> 00:37:27,200
area

873
00:37:34,630 --> 00:37:30,240
um well it seems to me that

874
00:37:37,829 --> 00:37:34,640
there has been in in modern times

875
00:37:42,150 --> 00:37:37,839
some people who have uh

876
00:37:45,190 --> 00:37:42,160
studied uh electromagnetic

877
00:37:49,990 --> 00:37:45,200
properties of of certain places

878
00:37:52,710 --> 00:37:50,000
and uh and personer who recently died

879
00:37:54,069 --> 00:37:52,720
had this person's helmet that he would

880
00:37:56,349 --> 00:37:54,079
put on people

881
00:37:58,150 --> 00:37:56,359
that stimulated their brains with

882
00:38:05,510 --> 00:37:58,160
electromagnet

883
00:38:08,630 --> 00:38:05,520
and they would have in fact

884
00:38:13,030 --> 00:38:08,640
paranormal experiences

885
00:38:16,550 --> 00:38:13,040
so it could be that some of the

886
00:38:19,829 --> 00:38:16,560
minerals in the earth particularly

887
00:38:22,950 --> 00:38:19,839
quartz and we do know of course that

888
00:38:24,870 --> 00:38:22,960
quartz has been used uh for many years

889
00:38:27,349 --> 00:38:24,880
in radios for instance so that

890
00:38:28,790 --> 00:38:27,359
it does have some very unusual

891
00:38:31,349 --> 00:38:28,800
properties beyond

892
00:38:33,030 --> 00:38:31,359
the spiritual properties of people

893
00:38:34,470 --> 00:38:33,040
wearing a piece of quartz around their

894
00:38:37,829 --> 00:38:34,480
neck for protection

895
00:38:39,870 --> 00:38:37,839
or something of that nature so there is

896
00:38:43,750 --> 00:38:39,880
those electrical

897
00:38:47,190 --> 00:38:43,760
electromagnetic properties in

898
00:38:48,470 --> 00:38:47,200
boulder fields and um and and courts

899
00:38:52,230 --> 00:38:48,480
particularly

900
00:38:53,990 --> 00:38:52,240
and he also had built a table of some

901
00:38:54,950 --> 00:38:54,000
sort would you like to speak to that for

902
00:38:57,829 --> 00:38:54,960
a moment

903
00:38:58,550 --> 00:38:57,839
sure but let me just add on what you

904
00:39:01,430 --> 00:38:58,560
just sure

905
00:39:03,910 --> 00:39:01,440
sure i think it would make a fascinating

906
00:39:06,790 --> 00:39:03,920
study for someone to

907
00:39:07,670 --> 00:39:06,800
look into is there a scientific basis

908
00:39:10,069 --> 00:39:07,680
for

909
00:39:12,630 --> 00:39:10,079
uh you know certain certain areas being

910
00:39:15,670 --> 00:39:12,640
like hot spots

911
00:39:17,030 --> 00:39:15,680
and i was at a a meeting of the sse a

912
00:39:19,829 --> 00:39:17,040
few years ago

913
00:39:20,790 --> 00:39:19,839
society for scientific exploration yes

914
00:39:23,589 --> 00:39:20,800
yes

915
00:39:24,790 --> 00:39:23,599
i asked one of the researchers there if

916
00:39:27,190 --> 00:39:24,800
she thought that

917
00:39:28,790 --> 00:39:27,200
there were areas that were more

918
00:39:32,069 --> 00:39:28,800
conducive to

919
00:39:34,870 --> 00:39:32,079
psychic or paranormal activity she said

920
00:39:37,910 --> 00:39:34,880
she did believe it and she called them

921
00:39:39,349 --> 00:39:37,920
epiphanic zones and i have tried to

922
00:39:41,750 --> 00:39:39,359
research that i've never

923
00:39:43,750 --> 00:39:41,760
found anything on it but i think it

924
00:39:46,069 --> 00:39:43,760
would be a fascinating study

925
00:39:48,790 --> 00:39:46,079
well i'll go ahead i was just going to

926
00:39:51,349 --> 00:39:48,800
speak to that uh i'm a member of the ssc

927
00:39:51,829 --> 00:39:51,359
as well as kate is she's not here but

928
00:39:54,870 --> 00:39:51,839
she's

929
00:39:56,150 --> 00:39:54,880
we're both members of that society and

930
00:39:59,190 --> 00:39:56,160
it's a wonderful

931
00:40:02,310 --> 00:39:59,200
organization um

932
00:40:06,069 --> 00:40:02,320
but beyond that um

933
00:40:07,109 --> 00:40:06,079
let's just look at um people do go

934
00:40:11,190 --> 00:40:07,119
missing

935
00:40:13,670 --> 00:40:11,200
in boulder fields across the country

936
00:40:15,510 --> 00:40:13,680
go missing and sometimes are never ever

937
00:40:18,790 --> 00:40:15,520
found again

938
00:40:22,829 --> 00:40:18,800
uh and in iceland

939
00:40:27,109 --> 00:40:22,839
and other scandinavian countries

940
00:40:30,790 --> 00:40:27,119
uh people don't move these big boulders

941
00:40:34,390 --> 00:40:30,800
in fact they will still build roads

942
00:40:37,670 --> 00:40:34,400
around the boulders because they believe

943
00:40:41,109 --> 00:40:37,680
that these huge boulders are

944
00:40:43,510 --> 00:40:41,119
homes to elves and um

945
00:40:44,470 --> 00:40:43,520
fairy folk gnomes uh they're different

946
00:40:48,230 --> 00:40:44,480
words for

947
00:40:48,950 --> 00:40:48,240
for these uh only quasi-physical

948
00:40:52,069 --> 00:40:48,960
entities

949
00:40:55,430 --> 00:40:52,079
shall we call them uh so

950
00:40:58,870 --> 00:40:55,440
it's not particularly um

951
00:41:02,309 --> 00:40:58,880
a novel idea but it is an idea

952
00:41:06,550 --> 00:41:02,319
that certainly needs more research

953
00:41:08,710 --> 00:41:06,560
to it yes indeed and now i shall try to

954
00:41:11,910 --> 00:41:08,720
answer your question about the machine

955
00:41:14,950 --> 00:41:11,920
okay good jonathan coons

956
00:41:18,550 --> 00:41:14,960
built what he called a spirit machine

957
00:41:22,309 --> 00:41:18,560
or retaining battery those victorian

958
00:41:24,790 --> 00:41:22,319
spiritualists love their machine and

959
00:41:27,750 --> 00:41:24,800
he had started with a table that was

960
00:41:30,150 --> 00:41:27,760
rectangular in shape a wooden table

961
00:41:32,150 --> 00:41:30,160
he built a frame on the top of the table

962
00:41:36,150 --> 00:41:32,160
as sort of a curved wooden

963
00:41:36,790 --> 00:41:36,160
frame and he attached uh metal plates to

964
00:41:43,829 --> 00:41:36,800
it

965
00:41:45,910 --> 00:41:43,839
and then he put a bass drum on one

966
00:41:48,710 --> 00:41:45,920
side of the frame and a tenor drum on

967
00:41:50,710 --> 00:41:48,720
the other side of the frame and he said

968
00:41:51,910 --> 00:41:50,720
that the spirits would charge this

969
00:41:54,230 --> 00:41:51,920
machine

970
00:41:57,349 --> 00:41:54,240
and that it would cause them to be able

971
00:42:01,030 --> 00:41:57,359
to focus their energies

972
00:42:02,150 --> 00:42:01,040
in a more concentrated manner now others

973
00:42:04,470 --> 00:42:02,160
who visited there

974
00:42:06,069 --> 00:42:04,480
said that it was not able to conduct

975
00:42:08,230 --> 00:42:06,079
electricity

976
00:42:10,069 --> 00:42:08,240
and that it was simply a piece of

977
00:42:13,670 --> 00:42:10,079
furniture

978
00:42:14,950 --> 00:42:13,680
i tried to get into this further and i

979
00:42:17,270 --> 00:42:14,960
contacted

980
00:42:18,150 --> 00:42:17,280
a gentleman who deals in antique

981
00:42:21,190 --> 00:42:18,160
furniture in

982
00:42:23,829 --> 00:42:21,200
ohio he's on many shows dealing with

983
00:42:26,470 --> 00:42:23,839
antiques and he said that he had never

984
00:42:28,829 --> 00:42:26,480
seen one he had never seen a machine

985
00:42:31,670 --> 00:42:28,839
like that

986
00:42:34,710 --> 00:42:31,680
hmm well i

987
00:42:36,710 --> 00:42:34,720
i must admit that i have not seen such a

988
00:42:40,309 --> 00:42:36,720
machine but i do know

989
00:42:43,349 --> 00:42:40,319
that lots of people do construct

990
00:42:47,190 --> 00:42:43,359
machines of sorts that

991
00:42:51,030 --> 00:42:47,200
try to collect ambient

992
00:42:54,710 --> 00:42:51,040
electrical energy through the use of

993
00:42:58,230 --> 00:42:54,720
copper wires and the like so it is not

994
00:43:01,510 --> 00:42:58,240
it's not a totally one-off

995
00:43:03,910 --> 00:43:01,520
kind of situation so

996
00:43:06,790 --> 00:43:03,920
you had mentioned that you you you used

997
00:43:12,870 --> 00:43:10,309
you used the term um spiritualist

998
00:43:14,069 --> 00:43:12,880
society of the day do you think

999
00:43:16,790 --> 00:43:14,079
spiritualism has

1000
00:43:19,910 --> 00:43:16,800
changed very much in the intervening

1001
00:43:23,030 --> 00:43:22,230
uh that's a really great question i

1002
00:43:25,510 --> 00:43:23,040
don't really

1003
00:43:27,030 --> 00:43:25,520
pretend to be an authority on the modern

1004
00:43:29,670 --> 00:43:27,040
day um

1005
00:43:32,390 --> 00:43:29,680
i've focused more on the historical now

1006
00:43:34,470 --> 00:43:32,400
i visited lillydale new york

1007
00:43:36,390 --> 00:43:34,480
as part of my research and i also

1008
00:43:39,910 --> 00:43:36,400
visited castega

1009
00:43:42,309 --> 00:43:39,920
florida as well i think maybe the main

1010
00:43:45,030 --> 00:43:42,319
difference that i have seen and you may

1011
00:43:45,589 --> 00:43:45,040
be able to comment on this spiritual is

1012
00:43:49,109 --> 00:43:45,599
that the

1013
00:43:52,390 --> 00:43:49,119
physical uh mediumship is not

1014
00:43:55,829 --> 00:43:52,400
allowed anymore or it's um it's not

1015
00:43:58,790 --> 00:43:55,839
encouraged yeah because the potential

1016
00:44:01,270 --> 00:43:58,800
for fraud that does exist there

1017
00:44:03,030 --> 00:44:01,280
uh what i would say to that is i visited

1018
00:44:04,710 --> 00:44:03,040
both of those places

1019
00:44:07,430 --> 00:44:04,720
and i liked them both they were very

1020
00:44:10,069 --> 00:44:07,440
nice i i do not consider myself

1021
00:44:11,430 --> 00:44:10,079
a card-carrying member of any

1022
00:44:14,550 --> 00:44:11,440
spiritualist

1023
00:44:17,829 --> 00:44:14,560
per se organization though i respect

1024
00:44:21,990 --> 00:44:17,839
the um i respect the

1025
00:44:25,109 --> 00:44:22,000
uh religion as as it stands uh but in

1026
00:44:25,589 --> 00:44:25,119
europe particularly in england there is

1027
00:44:28,230 --> 00:44:25,599
still

1028
00:44:30,230 --> 00:44:28,240
a lot of physical mediumship going on

1029
00:44:33,750 --> 00:44:30,240
apparently

1030
00:44:34,790 --> 00:44:33,760
interesting very interesting and i did

1031
00:44:38,470 --> 00:44:34,800
mention to you in

1032
00:44:42,230 --> 00:44:38,480
a brief conversation we had prior to

1033
00:44:45,829 --> 00:44:42,240
this podcast that there is a gentleman

1034
00:44:49,109 --> 00:44:45,839
named dr james mclennan

1035
00:44:52,950 --> 00:44:49,119
and he has written a book

1036
00:44:56,069 --> 00:44:52,960
called uh the entity letters

1037
00:44:58,309 --> 00:44:56,079
uh pr uh which uh was published by

1038
00:45:01,990 --> 00:44:58,319
anomalous books and we did

1039
00:45:05,230 --> 00:45:02,000
uh interview him and um

1040
00:45:06,870 --> 00:45:05,240
there were a lot of of physical

1041
00:45:09,990 --> 00:45:06,880
manifestations

1042
00:45:13,349 --> 00:45:10,000
going on um in the midwest

1043
00:45:16,550 --> 00:45:13,359
with this group uh uh that was

1044
00:45:17,430 --> 00:45:16,560
um that he wrote about in the entity

1045
00:45:21,349 --> 00:45:17,440
letters

1046
00:45:24,150 --> 00:45:21,359
that centered around the spirituality

1047
00:45:25,670 --> 00:45:24,160
of i'm trying to think of the

1048
00:45:29,349 --> 00:45:25,680
gentleman's name now

1049
00:45:32,069 --> 00:45:29,359
john nieburr

1050
00:45:33,910 --> 00:45:32,079
who wrote black elk speaks i can't think

1051
00:45:36,710 --> 00:45:33,920
of the end of his last name

1052
00:45:39,109 --> 00:45:36,720
but he wrote the book black elk speaks

1053
00:45:41,510 --> 00:45:39,119
which was

1054
00:45:44,790 --> 00:45:41,520
a spiritual book involving native

1055
00:45:48,069 --> 00:45:44,800
americans as well

1056
00:45:51,750 --> 00:45:48,079
and the people who gathered in a circle

1057
00:45:56,150 --> 00:45:51,760
um for many years they did experience

1058
00:45:59,829 --> 00:45:56,160
um a lot of physical manifestations

1059
00:46:00,630 --> 00:45:59,839
so moving on from there uh would you

1060
00:46:04,710 --> 00:46:00,640
like to

1061
00:46:07,270 --> 00:46:04,720
go forward with the story of uh

1062
00:46:09,190 --> 00:46:07,280
jonathan coons and and what uh happened

1063
00:46:09,990 --> 00:46:09,200
to him i know that he visited new york

1064
00:46:12,390 --> 00:46:10,000
and he did

1065
00:46:13,030 --> 00:46:12,400
make some moves in his life and maybe

1066
00:46:19,990 --> 00:46:13,040
we'll

1067
00:46:21,109 --> 00:46:20,000
absolutely um jonathan coons ran the

1068
00:46:24,230 --> 00:46:21,119
spirit room

1069
00:46:26,870 --> 00:46:24,240
next to his home in athens county ohio

1070
00:46:29,030 --> 00:46:26,880
for about three and a half years

1071
00:46:31,750 --> 00:46:29,040
and it's important to realize that he

1072
00:46:34,230 --> 00:46:31,760
was not charging admission

1073
00:46:37,750 --> 00:46:34,240
and this was what to me made him all the

1074
00:46:39,829 --> 00:46:37,760
more fascinating as the character

1075
00:46:41,349 --> 00:46:39,839
the mediums on the east coast some of

1076
00:46:43,670 --> 00:46:41,359
them were making

1077
00:46:44,470 --> 00:46:43,680
well the fox sisters were reported to be

1078
00:46:47,589 --> 00:46:44,480
making

1079
00:46:49,510 --> 00:46:47,599
150 a day and i know there's a

1080
00:46:52,230 --> 00:46:49,520
can be a difference of opinion about

1081
00:46:54,870 --> 00:46:52,240
that but um

1082
00:46:56,790 --> 00:46:54,880
he did not charge admission but he did

1083
00:46:58,710 --> 00:46:56,800
accept donations

1084
00:47:01,829 --> 00:46:58,720
and he and his wife were kind of going

1085
00:47:03,270 --> 00:47:01,839
broke because they had so many visitors

1086
00:47:05,030 --> 00:47:03,280
would come there

1087
00:47:07,190 --> 00:47:05,040
and some of them would really take

1088
00:47:08,950 --> 00:47:07,200
advantage of the kunsans

1089
00:47:11,510 --> 00:47:08,960
and they would come and they would just

1090
00:47:14,150 --> 00:47:11,520
make the scene and stay there for

1091
00:47:17,510 --> 00:47:14,160
months at a time and this was quite a

1092
00:47:19,270 --> 00:47:17,520
drain on the family's resources because

1093
00:47:21,910 --> 00:47:19,280
let's not forget the koonzas were

1094
00:47:25,349 --> 00:47:21,920
farmers so they farmed all day long

1095
00:47:27,349 --> 00:47:25,359
to support the 10 children and then

1096
00:47:28,870 --> 00:47:27,359
probably five nights a week they were

1097
00:47:30,470 --> 00:47:28,880
having to stay on

1098
00:47:33,430 --> 00:47:30,480
i'm just guessing they were very

1099
00:47:35,910 --> 00:47:33,440
frequent and so this began to wear on

1100
00:47:38,549 --> 00:47:35,920
them after a while

1101
00:47:40,390 --> 00:47:38,559
and they actually had free loaders come

1102
00:47:43,829 --> 00:47:40,400
there and they had a term for it

1103
00:47:45,750 --> 00:47:43,839
spiritual mountain banks oh my

1104
00:47:48,069 --> 00:47:45,760
sometimes they would have to kind of run

1105
00:47:49,910 --> 00:47:48,079
people off in a nice way

1106
00:47:51,109 --> 00:47:49,920
when they were eating them out of house

1107
00:47:53,670 --> 00:47:51,119
and home

1108
00:47:55,910 --> 00:47:53,680
and but jonathan and his wife are very

1109
00:47:58,710 --> 00:47:55,920
hospitable and so they were

1110
00:48:00,630 --> 00:47:58,720
very uh kind to dealing with strangers

1111
00:48:03,829 --> 00:48:00,640
from all that i have read

1112
00:48:07,109 --> 00:48:03,839
however they also became under a lot of

1113
00:48:09,829 --> 00:48:07,119
criticism the spiritualists believe that

1114
00:48:12,069 --> 00:48:09,839
it was important to police the movement

1115
00:48:13,670 --> 00:48:12,079
they thought that if you suspected

1116
00:48:16,309 --> 00:48:13,680
fraudulent activity

1117
00:48:19,030 --> 00:48:16,319
you should report it because that would

1118
00:48:23,030 --> 00:48:19,040
keep the movement more pure

1119
00:48:26,069 --> 00:48:23,040
and so there were some debunkers that

1120
00:48:29,109 --> 00:48:26,079
came to see coons and went away

1121
00:48:30,790 --> 00:48:29,119
and published negative stories most of

1122
00:48:32,950 --> 00:48:30,800
the stories that uh

1123
00:48:35,030 --> 00:48:32,960
visitors wrote and we have many visitor

1124
00:48:37,349 --> 00:48:35,040
accounts thank goodness

1125
00:48:38,470 --> 00:48:37,359
most of them were very positive people

1126
00:48:40,950 --> 00:48:38,480
were very

1127
00:48:42,150 --> 00:48:40,960
inspired and joyful by what they had

1128
00:48:45,829 --> 00:48:42,160
experienced

1129
00:48:46,309 --> 00:48:45,839
but the debunkers did begin to wear and

1130
00:48:49,670 --> 00:48:46,319
tear

1131
00:48:53,829 --> 00:48:49,680
on the king's family and so after

1132
00:48:55,270 --> 00:48:53,839
about the end of 1855 jonathan shut down

1133
00:48:57,430 --> 00:48:55,280
the spirit room

1134
00:48:58,870 --> 00:48:57,440
and he and his family went on the road

1135
00:49:02,870 --> 00:48:58,880
with their

1136
00:49:06,309 --> 00:49:02,880
mediumistic performances so they went to

1137
00:49:08,790 --> 00:49:06,319
central ohio they went to cleveland um

1138
00:49:09,349 --> 00:49:08,800
on out the shore there of lake area and

1139
00:49:12,390 --> 00:49:09,359
eventually

1140
00:49:14,230 --> 00:49:12,400
she said to new york city but they were

1141
00:49:17,190 --> 00:49:14,240
never as successful

1142
00:49:17,829 --> 00:49:17,200
on the road as they were back home and

1143
00:49:20,870 --> 00:49:17,839
so

1144
00:49:23,190 --> 00:49:20,880
uh emma harding britain the historian of

1145
00:49:25,910 --> 00:49:23,200
the spiritualist movement she

1146
00:49:27,589 --> 00:49:25,920
uh gave a lot of space in one of her

1147
00:49:31,190 --> 00:49:27,599
books to coons

1148
00:49:31,829 --> 00:49:31,200
and she feels that um that their powers

1149
00:49:35,190 --> 00:49:31,839
wane

1150
00:49:38,230 --> 00:49:35,200
for two reasons and one reason was

1151
00:49:40,309 --> 00:49:38,240
the location wasn't

1152
00:49:42,549 --> 00:49:40,319
as conducive once they got away from

1153
00:49:45,750 --> 00:49:42,559
their hills and forests

1154
00:49:46,950 --> 00:49:45,760
and her second reason was um that the

1155
00:49:50,790 --> 00:49:46,960
children were

1156
00:49:51,589 --> 00:49:50,800
getting older and you can interpret this

1157
00:49:54,150 --> 00:49:51,599
two ways

1158
00:49:55,589 --> 00:49:54,160
one they were getting older they did not

1159
00:49:58,630 --> 00:49:55,599
want to continue

1160
00:50:01,190 --> 00:49:58,640
the seances that was mom and dad's thing

1161
00:50:02,710 --> 00:50:01,200
and so they got away from it or you can

1162
00:50:05,190 --> 00:50:02,720
interpret it maybe

1163
00:50:06,309 --> 00:50:05,200
in terms of poltergeist activity which

1164
00:50:09,990 --> 00:50:06,319
is

1165
00:50:12,950 --> 00:50:10,000
common with the teenagers right

1166
00:50:13,829 --> 00:50:12,960
so just to finish up on that coons did

1167
00:50:18,390 --> 00:50:13,839
move to

1168
00:50:20,790 --> 00:50:18,400
um illinois in 1858

1169
00:50:23,190 --> 00:50:20,800
and he remained a spiritualist his

1170
00:50:24,870 --> 00:50:23,200
entire life he no longer did the public

1171
00:50:27,910 --> 00:50:24,880
performances

1172
00:50:31,589 --> 00:50:27,920
but he wrote regularly to the uh

1173
00:50:35,750 --> 00:50:31,599
religio philosophical journal in chicago

1174
00:50:38,829 --> 00:50:35,760
and he even wrote a very uh

1175
00:50:41,430 --> 00:50:38,839
hard to read book about his beliefs on

1176
00:50:44,870 --> 00:50:41,440
christianity

1177
00:50:48,069 --> 00:50:44,880
well that is um that is very very

1178
00:50:49,430 --> 00:50:48,079
interesting and i wanted to uh make a

1179
00:50:52,710 --> 00:50:49,440
correction right now

1180
00:50:55,910 --> 00:50:52,720
and and say that black elk speaks

1181
00:50:59,430 --> 00:50:55,920
was written by john g

1182
00:51:00,309 --> 00:50:59,440
nihard and i was uh conflating his name

1183
00:51:03,430 --> 00:51:00,319
with

1184
00:51:06,790 --> 00:51:03,440
reinhold nebor or something like that so

1185
00:51:08,790 --> 00:51:06,800
a little bit of confusion there but

1186
00:51:10,549 --> 00:51:08,800
what i would like you to do now is to

1187
00:51:12,870 --> 00:51:10,559
please tell people

1188
00:51:13,990 --> 00:51:12,880
uh where they can get your book who

1189
00:51:16,069 --> 00:51:14,000
publishes it

1190
00:51:17,270 --> 00:51:16,079
and give yourself a little commercial

1191
00:51:20,309 --> 00:51:17,280
there please

1192
00:51:22,790 --> 00:51:20,319
sharon the book is

1193
00:51:24,790 --> 00:51:22,800
enchanted ground the spirit room of

1194
00:51:27,270 --> 00:51:24,800
jonathan coons

1195
00:51:29,990 --> 00:51:27,280
it's available at your neighborhood

1196
00:51:33,589 --> 00:51:30,000
bookstore or you can get it from

1197
00:51:36,630 --> 00:51:33,599
swallow press website which is

1198
00:51:37,750 --> 00:51:36,640
part of ohio university press in athens

1199
00:51:40,790 --> 00:51:37,760
ohio

1200
00:51:42,950 --> 00:51:40,800
it's also available on amazon barnes and

1201
00:51:46,109 --> 00:51:42,960
noble and those large

1202
00:51:47,430 --> 00:51:46,119
booksellers well i i'm sorry if i

1203
00:51:50,630 --> 00:51:47,440
mischaracterized you

1204
00:51:52,710 --> 00:51:50,640
as teaching at ohio university but i

1205
00:51:54,549 --> 00:51:52,720
thought they mostly published people

1206
00:51:56,230 --> 00:51:54,559
who were actually actively teaching

1207
00:51:58,470 --> 00:51:56,240
there so that's quite a

1208
00:51:59,349 --> 00:51:58,480
feather in your cap so to speak that

1209
00:52:01,349 --> 00:51:59,359
they are

1210
00:52:03,670 --> 00:52:01,359
are publishing you and you're not a

1211
00:52:06,150 --> 00:52:03,680
teacher there correct

1212
00:52:06,950 --> 00:52:06,160
well i'm retired from college teaching i

1213
00:52:10,390 --> 00:52:06,960
did teach

1214
00:52:13,990 --> 00:52:10,400
um there as recently as 2016. i

1215
00:52:17,510 --> 00:52:14,000
oh but now i'm just writing and

1216
00:52:22,069 --> 00:52:17,520
enjoying my retirement so

1217
00:52:24,549 --> 00:52:22,079
uh what what are you writing about now

1218
00:52:25,670 --> 00:52:24,559
well i'm sort of taking a breather from

1219
00:52:29,109 --> 00:52:25,680
writing and just

1220
00:52:31,109 --> 00:52:29,119
traveling promoting my book and i have

1221
00:52:33,910 --> 00:52:31,119
so many ideas but

1222
00:52:36,069 --> 00:52:33,920
it's a real huge commitment of time to

1223
00:52:38,549 --> 00:52:36,079
start on another non-fiction work so i

1224
00:52:40,549 --> 00:52:38,559
think i might just do some shorter

1225
00:52:41,829 --> 00:52:40,559
articles while i'm figuring out my next

1226
00:52:44,309 --> 00:52:41,839
big project

1227
00:52:45,270 --> 00:52:44,319
well well that sounds like a very good

1228
00:52:48,630 --> 00:52:45,280
idea

1229
00:52:52,069 --> 00:52:48,640
um what i was going to say in

1230
00:52:55,430 --> 00:52:52,079
um in in closing was that i was also

1231
00:52:56,069 --> 00:52:55,440
impressed by the fact that uh jonathan

1232
00:53:00,150 --> 00:52:56,079
coons

1233
00:53:03,349 --> 00:53:00,160
didn't charge any admission uh to his um

1234
00:53:05,270 --> 00:53:03,359
to his spirit room and and though he did

1235
00:53:07,190 --> 00:53:05,280
charge board i believe once in a while

1236
00:53:08,069 --> 00:53:07,200
when people would stay there he was

1237
00:53:11,910 --> 00:53:08,079
often

1238
00:53:17,270 --> 00:53:15,030
not paid uh unfortunately

1239
00:53:18,549 --> 00:53:17,280
however um you know i'm not against

1240
00:53:20,549 --> 00:53:18,559
people getting paid for

1241
00:53:22,549 --> 00:53:20,559
the work they do people do have to live

1242
00:53:24,870 --> 00:53:22,559
they do have to eat there are different

1243
00:53:26,390 --> 00:53:24,880
there are different situations but that

1244
00:53:30,390 --> 00:53:26,400
particularly

1245
00:53:33,670 --> 00:53:30,400
would uh contra indicate the idea of

1246
00:53:35,829 --> 00:53:33,680
a complete fraudulent uh operation

1247
00:53:38,870 --> 00:53:35,839
wouldn't you say

1248
00:53:41,670 --> 00:53:38,880
yes he was very uh sincere in his

1249
00:53:43,109 --> 00:53:41,680
efforts to convince people of the soul's

1250
00:53:46,790 --> 00:53:43,119
immortality

1251
00:53:51,109 --> 00:53:46,800
um even if he did perform some of the

1252
00:53:54,069 --> 00:53:51,119
the illusions or manifestations himself

1253
00:53:56,790 --> 00:53:54,079
he truly did believe that he could help

1254
00:53:59,750 --> 00:53:56,800
people have a more joyful

1255
00:54:02,230 --> 00:53:59,760
outlook on life he wanted people to

1256
00:54:04,230 --> 00:54:02,240
appreciate their own divine nature and

1257
00:54:07,750 --> 00:54:04,240
find their own voice

1258
00:54:10,390 --> 00:54:07,760
well that's that's quite beautiful now

1259
00:54:11,589 --> 00:54:10,400
and furthermore in closing i'm going to

1260
00:54:14,630 --> 00:54:11,599
ask you

1261
00:54:15,270 --> 00:54:14,640
what even though you didn't state an

1262
00:54:17,750 --> 00:54:15,280
opinion

1263
00:54:18,950 --> 00:54:17,760
having studied it for so long what is

1264
00:54:21,750 --> 00:54:18,960
your point of view

1265
00:54:22,630 --> 00:54:21,760
on on on such things you are an ssc

1266
00:54:25,670 --> 00:54:22,640
member or

1267
00:54:26,710 --> 00:54:25,680
were an ssc member and what is your

1268
00:54:30,470 --> 00:54:26,720
point of view

1269
00:54:32,710 --> 00:54:30,480
about of things of this nature

1270
00:54:33,829 --> 00:54:32,720
i just believe that we need to expand

1271
00:54:36,950 --> 00:54:33,839
our scientific

1272
00:54:38,470 --> 00:54:36,960
paradigm to include these types of

1273
00:54:41,109 --> 00:54:38,480
experiences

1274
00:54:43,589 --> 00:54:41,119
everything that happens in this world

1275
00:54:46,710 --> 00:54:43,599
cannot be duplicated in a lab

1276
00:54:48,789 --> 00:54:46,720
now i know that parapsychology has made

1277
00:54:50,150 --> 00:54:48,799
some advances i know you've had brenda

1278
00:54:53,190 --> 00:54:50,160
dunn on your show

1279
00:54:56,309 --> 00:54:53,200
oh yes these things but

1280
00:54:59,030 --> 00:54:56,319
i just think that we need to work up a

1281
00:55:01,109 --> 00:54:59,040
scientific paradigm that includes

1282
00:55:02,549 --> 00:55:01,119
consciousness because there's very many

1283
00:55:05,589 --> 00:55:02,559
well-documented

1284
00:55:09,349 --> 00:55:05,599
experiences that can't be duplicated in

1285
00:55:12,870 --> 00:55:09,359
a lab but yet we know that they do exist

1286
00:55:16,150 --> 00:55:12,880
absolutely absolutely and i am

1287
00:55:19,430 --> 00:55:16,160
a person who myself

1288
00:55:24,069 --> 00:55:19,440
doesn't hold the concept

1289
00:55:27,510 --> 00:55:24,079
that consciousness is merely a product

1290
00:55:30,390 --> 00:55:27,520
of the brain but more that the brain

1291
00:55:31,829 --> 00:55:30,400
is a transceiver or a transmitter of

1292
00:55:35,030 --> 00:55:31,839
consciousness

1293
00:55:38,390 --> 00:55:35,040
so it it's it's very hard

1294
00:55:39,990 --> 00:55:38,400
to study this because we're studying it

1295
00:55:42,950 --> 00:55:40,000
with our brains and

1296
00:55:45,510 --> 00:55:42,960
um looking at it through the viewpoint

1297
00:55:48,870 --> 00:55:45,520
of consensus reality

1298
00:55:52,309 --> 00:55:48,880
but that gets into a far longer

1299
00:55:52,710 --> 00:55:52,319
discussion than we probably have time

1300
00:55:55,670 --> 00:55:52,720
for

1301
00:55:57,910 --> 00:55:55,680
here but i i would like to thank you

1302
00:56:01,190 --> 00:55:57,920
very much for joining us

1303
00:56:04,230 --> 00:56:01,200
today here on shattered reality podcast

1304
00:56:04,789 --> 00:56:04,240
um do you have anything um that you want

1305
00:56:08,470 --> 00:56:04,799
to say

1306
00:56:10,950 --> 00:56:08,480
uh to close up just thank you so much

1307
00:56:13,270 --> 00:56:10,960
for taking interest in my work i really

1308
00:56:14,069 --> 00:56:13,280
appreciate having the chance to talk

1309
00:56:16,710 --> 00:56:14,079
with you

1310
00:56:17,270 --> 00:56:16,720
and if you come back to ohio let's go

1311
00:56:19,510 --> 00:56:17,280
visit an

1312
00:56:20,630 --> 00:56:19,520
indian man that would be really cool

1313
00:56:24,870 --> 00:56:20,640
well i agree

1314
00:56:26,870 --> 00:56:24,880
i agree and i i have visited

1315
00:56:29,910 --> 00:56:26,880
different sets two different sets of

1316
00:56:30,870 --> 00:56:29,920
mounds two different times the last time

1317
00:56:34,309 --> 00:56:30,880
was this

1318
00:56:37,510 --> 00:56:34,319
past summer when i did end up visiting

1319
00:56:41,589 --> 00:56:37,520
our mutual friend miss paula lockhart

1320
00:56:43,270 --> 00:56:41,599
and i did visit a mound in ohio a group

1321
00:56:45,670 --> 00:56:43,280
of mounds that was really

1322
00:56:47,030 --> 00:56:45,680
very very powerful now i kind of

1323
00:56:50,549 --> 00:56:47,040
understand that

1324
00:56:53,589 --> 00:56:50,559
these mounds may be prior to

1325
00:56:56,150 --> 00:56:53,599
um the native american may have been

1326
00:56:57,270 --> 00:56:56,160
constructed prior to the native american

1327
00:57:00,870 --> 00:56:57,280
people's

1328
00:57:02,309 --> 00:57:00,880
uh uh coming there the ones that we knew

1329
00:57:04,390 --> 00:57:02,319
lived there like i believe it was

1330
00:57:07,750 --> 00:57:04,400
basically the shawnee that lived

1331
00:57:11,030 --> 00:57:07,760
in that basic area is that true

1332
00:57:14,470 --> 00:57:11,040
yes shawnee in delaware's i think okay

1333
00:57:17,510 --> 00:57:14,480
okay so the actual persons

1334
00:57:21,510 --> 00:57:17,520
who constructed those mounds

1335
00:57:25,109 --> 00:57:21,520
uh were a different a different group

1336
00:57:26,870 --> 00:57:25,119
but um i believe that the the native

1337
00:57:29,349 --> 00:57:26,880
american people

1338
00:57:30,870 --> 00:57:29,359
uh were very respectful of those mounds

1339
00:57:34,870 --> 00:57:30,880
and i i wish

1340
00:57:36,950 --> 00:57:34,880
that the settlers the people who came in

1341
00:57:38,630 --> 00:57:36,960
were as respectful of the mounds because

1342
00:57:39,990 --> 00:57:38,640
we would have a lot more of them now if

1343
00:57:43,510 --> 00:57:40,000
they were

1344
00:57:46,230 --> 00:57:43,520
but that's true that's just an opinion

1345
00:57:47,030 --> 00:57:46,240
well thank you so much sharon for

1346
00:57:49,430 --> 00:57:47,040
joining us

1347
00:57:50,470 --> 00:57:49,440
uh this has been very interesting for me

1348
00:57:53,670 --> 00:57:50,480
and uh

1349
00:57:56,309 --> 00:57:53,680
i agree let's all get together back in

1350
00:57:58,230 --> 00:57:56,319
in athens ohio when i when i come out to

1351
00:58:01,030 --> 00:57:58,240
visit again

1352
00:58:01,910 --> 00:58:01,040
we'll invite paula to go with us okay

1353
00:58:05,109 --> 00:58:01,920
all right

1354
00:58:08,789 --> 00:58:05,119
thank you so much and uh bye for now

1355
00:58:12,309 --> 00:58:08,799
bye-bye well friends that was

1356
00:58:15,030 --> 00:58:12,319
uh our latest installment of shattered

1357
00:58:19,109 --> 00:58:15,040
reality podcast

1358
00:58:22,309 --> 00:58:19,119
that was sharon hatfield her book

1359
00:58:25,750 --> 00:58:22,319
enchanted ground the spirit room

1360
00:58:28,789 --> 00:58:25,760
of jonathan coons and

1361
00:58:32,630 --> 00:58:28,799
it is published by swallow press of

1362
00:58:36,309 --> 00:58:32,640
athens ohio and she was just a

1363
00:58:36,950 --> 00:58:36,319
very hospitable guest i would like to

1364
00:58:39,990 --> 00:58:36,960
remind

1365
00:58:43,190 --> 00:58:40,000
all of you to like us

1366
00:58:47,589 --> 00:58:43,200
on facebook join us

1367
00:58:53,910 --> 00:58:47,599
on shatteredrealitypodcast.com

1368
00:59:00,230 --> 00:58:57,109
and on youtube we have

1369
00:59:01,109 --> 00:59:00,240
a shattered reality podcast channel

1370
00:59:05,030 --> 00:59:01,119
there

1371
00:59:08,710 --> 00:59:05,040
we are available on itunes

1372
00:59:11,910 --> 00:59:08,720
and on stitcher and

1373
00:59:15,109 --> 00:59:11,920
please like us on any and all of

1374
00:59:16,390 --> 00:59:15,119
those different venues i would really

1375
00:59:19,910 --> 00:59:16,400
appreciate it

1376
00:59:22,950 --> 00:59:19,920
now i have gotten some requests

1377
00:59:27,270 --> 00:59:22,960
uh for people who want to

1378
00:59:28,789 --> 00:59:27,280
uh come on as guests and uh we do have a

1379
00:59:32,069 --> 00:59:28,799
backlog of people

1380
00:59:35,109 --> 00:59:32,079
who want to be on as guests because we

1381
00:59:36,789 --> 00:59:35,119
basically do two shows a month unlike

1382
00:59:38,950 --> 00:59:36,799
some podcasts that do

1383
00:59:40,309 --> 00:59:38,960
a show every week we don't do quite so

1384
00:59:43,349 --> 00:59:40,319
many shows

1385
00:59:44,870 --> 00:59:43,359
but i appreciate all the listeners

1386
00:59:46,789 --> 00:59:44,880
suggestions

1387
00:59:49,990 --> 00:59:46,799
and i hope to get around to all the

1388
00:59:53,030 --> 00:59:50,000
worthy people out there who have

1389
00:59:56,630 --> 00:59:53,040
written or talked or

1390
01:00:00,069 --> 00:59:56,640
exhibited paranormal interest

1391
01:00:03,990 --> 01:00:00,079
and i guess we're about

1392
01:00:14,380 --> 01:00:04,000
to say goodbye